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Vineet
Hello and welcome back to Photosynthesis, individuals podcast where we talk to some of the most creative people across the country. Videographers, photographers, just experts in their field and talk about the art, the culture and the business of the creative field in India. Today we have with us a very special guest Mr. Bijitesh Dey who’s basically worked on as DOP and has helped well a lot of films and like hundreds of
ad campaigns across the country. He’s worked on Mission Majnu, he’s worked on Don, he’s worked on so much stuff like Andha Dhoon, music videos, ads, all kinds of stuff. Hi Vijay Desh, welcome, welcome. This is a big one for us. I’m so looking forward to our conversation.
Bijitesh
Me too, me too. Thanks, yeah.
Vineet
Thanks for joining us.
Bijitesh
And even a little bit of, not you can’t say job profile, but the thing is what happened, the reason behind doing things is different
No, I can’t say all the time. It’s there’s nothing like there’s no rule of that. But again, the purpose is more channelized, you can say for ads and corporate. So where we generally
have to go with what brand looking for, what brand expecting from us. And then you come with like your vision to their thoughts and then create the visuals and create a campaign.
Vineet
So you’re working with me. So there are two sets of things. One is your creative vision and there is the brand book, the brand guidelines that you have to match to.
Bijitesh
Correct. So it’s like amalgamation. Like you can say like you have to then we come on board to like whatever they thought of and then how to make that appealing to a customer and sometime like approachable which I mean I can say approachable but whatever I said the audience should see and connect to that thing. So that emotional connect has to happen also sometime.
In terms of narrative, you know ads also. See what is like you talk about emotional narrative only in films. But it’s not like that. See even in a brand, ads campaign, there’s lot of thing you have to connect to your audience. So that they’ll get convinced with your product, they convince with your brand and they start trusting your product. Then they only can buy that or start believing on that and then go for it. So there is again another communication. It has to happen that emotional communication.
Though it’s not about the way of that communication is a little different, but that connect has to happen. So, now we come to play how that can happen. So maybe you are saying something and selling something directly, but you have to convince people you are talking very realistically and which is very practical and then you have to give them the hope that this can solve their purpose. And then that
Vineet
Yeah.
Bijitesh
approach, now every brand has different things to approach and then way of doing it. So it’s different but the core is like you have to connect to that your audience customer with the product.
Vineet
Yeah that emotional connect absolutely has to be there. So but do you see brand teams coming in with okay this is how we want you to drive the emotional connect or do they work well together with you? You know are they supportive? Because if they are also hiring a very senior person like you they are sort of are probably coming in, we want to hear from you. Right? Or do you run into this is what we want to do. This is it.
Bijitesh
See what happened in this, what are happening, there’s two, I mean you can say, generally there are two categories, the brand in two categories. One is like very big established brand, established brands, those who have been making films for many years in the market, and they have research of their own, research of years of their research, and then every product they have a target, and it’s very research team, and there’s everything very defined for them, what they’re looking for. For their…
what happened is more about get us on board to execute their thought only and now add that how you can do it visually or narratively or story telling what you want to do or for product but another part is that the newer brands even some other establishment has also approach of experimenting
in their advertising campaign and all they want to get something different. On those campaigns what happened they there’s a lot of more liberty and then you bounce a lot of ideas and then they try to do something and all but it’s a like different category every brand has their own approach to for the things and then there’s a new brands coming up not only brand new product everything new startup coming up who are getting into advertising also.
So previously advertising used to happen with only big brands, known people think every day you see in shops, everything. But nowadays, even up a software development company also do campaigns. Even up a small home decor part, even up wash basin, tiles, everything. So these people are new on the field.
So they don’t have too much of research on their own things and all in terms of advertising and marketing. So they come with like, this is my target people, customers and all, and I want to communicate this way. Now for them, we have to get involved more. Then we have to create that thing, whatever, and there’s like a lot of communication is different. So the liberty is a little different. Though I say, yeah, I mean, there’s another.
Bijitesh
side of that also, they don’t know the process of filmmaking. So you have to go with a different kind of basic things to make them have understand how it works and all. That’s a different challenge. But otherwise they are much more open because they don’t have a preconceived things on their mind key. My brand is working like my advertising failed this time or work that time. So I want to be on that space because they are new. So they are
Vineet
So they don’t have any idea how we have used.
Bijitesh
exploring it they are exploring with us also.
Vineet
Like the big FMCG guys would be coming in maybe with Okay we have done this focus group discussion
Bijitesh
Yeah, yeah, they do their research focus group and what happened even about like suppose Ketchup brand so this ketchup brand they made like in last 20 years 50 films Some world some don’t never didn’t work So they have that then the research key to work for us and we went to be that space and then they are selling things Give my this market worked for me to tie cities work for me. So my content the advertising target to test
My advertising is for the rich people, it’s a common product. So they have more planned things, but the newer people, they never… So they are coming into the market. So maybe after five…
Vineet
And do you have a preference?
Bijitesh
It’s not the preference, both as you see what happen, it works to a again for us also. The big brands, it’s more secured obviously, they keep on doing things and all again, their product is seen more. So you and they do more much more work. So the volume and the process is keep on going and visibility is more.
But the newer brand what happened the most of the time the creativity space is more because you can try out things and all. But again what happened they are newer people. So visibility is less. Sometime even a lot of time happen is see economics involved. The budgets are constrained because they are new people. They are figuring out. They can’t spend that the big brands spend. So those limitations are there but creatively again there is more liberty.
So everything has its…
Vineet
Like what we have to agree and we basically do the purely online video. Right. So we don’t do mega campaigns, like, you know, TV campaigns. We don’t even touch that our company. Right. But what we see is startups exactly that like there’s more creative space. Budgets are lower, which we’re fine with. The tricky part for us is sometimes we run into clients who are like, okay, I want to make a Shah Rukh Khan and Tom Cruise ad film. My budget is 10,000 rupees.
Bijitesh
Hmm.
Vineet
We’ve literally run into people who make us jump hoops in terms of okay I want these 15 ad films, animation, 3D, this, that, everything will happen and actually come with a budget of 10-15 thousand rupees and we’re like how? Like how? But the flip side is some startups are like yeah, this is our target exactly as you’re saying Right? Do your stuff, this is our budget, it’s fixed and we’re like happy to work within that constraint So long as the client is clear on what they want Sometimes we just run into clients who have no idea what they want
Bijitesh
And then expectation like what happened the experience so much seeing things in TV and all but they don’t have any idea of the cost We did and the effort behind it and the people you need to get that done So those people those talent doesn’t come Not like it is everything as like you have to pay a cost for it price for it. Like there’s a cost for it So let’s say this struggle is there with the newer people like the senior like older Establishment who are making campaigns for some type they know the
Vineet
Come.
Exactly.
Bijitesh
This if I’m expecting this, there will be a this kind of cost is there. So things are you then you talk about ahead of that, like how to make that or the cost. It’s not about the basic level fight up how to execute in terms of logistic.
Vineet
And also, are you seeing any major shift happening as video moves more from TV to online? And people just need more and more of video. Are you seeing any major shift in your work, in budgets, in number of videos required? Are they now more focused on, we need cuts, we need like X number of cuts. Is that happening with you?
Bijitesh
Yeah that is always there what happening for our as you know nowadays making an ad film is not that expensive people are backing out because running an ad film in television is very expensive it’s very much like few hundred times more than the making the cost of ad so it’s not people are not like so thing is lot of shift and again what happened people are also moving from TV to online more
things are more so shift is there and the purpose here then what happened to previous years to happen this is my personal observation on that brand used to make like suppose one product they used to make two ads in a year now they want to make two ads and they approach 20 small videos for or reels for the approach but now they have to like the budget has to be like it gets shared between the so things are changing the economics are changing the
Budget frame is changing. But again, what happened then, another shift, like it started when online things started happening or digital films started happening. So starting that was like digital, small budget, hardly things, and then people used to say, you know, it’s okay, do it with a small camera, do it with a thing, maybe this, or something. Use lesser resource and all. Slowly again, what happened now, the brands are figuring out.
key to reach that sense of giving that quality even if it’s an online phone also you need to have that quality. Because people are exposed to the world. So in a same mobile if you are seeing a Hollywood or big Bollywood film you expect that quality to see it everywhere no. When I am watching an ad or read someone promotions I don’t want to like low res video for that.
Vineet
The quality expectation will fail.
Vineet
Yeah, like, if I’m watching an Avengers movie or I’m watching Pathan, my expectation of the special effects is going to be the same now.
Bijitesh
So what happened now they are figuring if it is though so it is a small like that target is digital or something but they are going for no make it the way do advertising because the end quality though they are going for the smaller screen or more things screen and all but quality has to be there. So that again happening so people for the even of the early days what happened if it is like digital payment and.
Vineet
Yeah.
Bijitesh
or small thing is you use low-res cameras, manage somewhere lesser equipment, resource. But now even the specially the big brands and all for digital frames or that kind of purpose also they are going with the same kind of resource they use for TV commercials. So now if I want to run in TV I will see, if I don’t want to run in TV I will see like my marketing team this whole thing will see later on but my product has to be
perfect the way we want to see it and for audience also it should not look like a see what happen for audience also they don’t know the technicalities layman their reaction is very simple they see a maza nahi aaya they just see only that even in the fudgy film any film koi nahi aaya kuch aaya kuch aaya they only they don’t know why this maza
Bijitesh
for layman mazaniya. Okay, but that one word changes the whole equations.
Vineet
Yeah, and with attention, especially online, it should be fun in the first 5 seconds for them to watch the rest of the ad also.
Bijitesh
Correct. Add all the looks. Yeah, I said that is the now that writing pattern also changing because the what I mean Pehle ad is to be made in like 50 seconds, 1 minute, 1 and a half minute. That’s kind of ads is very less. Now you have to tell your story in 20, 30 seconds is the like best you can afford nowadays.
Vineet
30 seconds and so 30 seconds and its 15 second cut and its 6 second cut because YouTube has to make unskippable ads too. So in 6 seconds the whole story has to be told. Which is actually a fun challenge. Like it’s a fun challenge but…
Bijitesh
Banana.
Bijitesh
Yeah, but a cut down was always there actually. What happened? Info TV also because of the cost. The brand first, one week to week they run the 30 second. Now everyone knows that. Then they cut down, run 15 second to cut down the cost, media cost. So in same day, then they run, see if you see and notice it, suppose any big brand, it’s maybe a car commercial. You see how.
45 second ad only for 10-15 days. That ad you see the smaller version slowly. So because they trust in the recall value of the people. People have seen once that also if the smaller so then it calluses happened or it’s a minority. So that is always there whenever the media has got like in last art the sell policy. This is getting expensive media and media buying. Then this trend of cut down started.
Before the digital thing also happened. Now this YouTube, all these five-star accounts, this happened in the last three, four, five years, this growth. And the digital marketing and all this open marketing got really pushed with the COVID. Everyone is staying at home. You have to connect people. And everything started working on the phone and all. That’s why this boom happened. But previously, the purpose was a little different. It was economics only. Now it’s not only economics. It’s
Vineet
And does economics work in that? Would you say that making a 15 second ad is cheaper than making a 30 second ad? Like of course we are absolute bachas compared to you. Our experience is longer ad is simpler to make. The shorter the ad, the more the storytelling effort that has to go in and the costs are effectively the same. Like in our…
Bijitesh
Yeah, cost or if you see what are cost depends on setup. Length of the film doesn’t make the cost too much except like 15 second or 1 minute is different because your shoot days increase. But otherwise if you like 15 or 30 second and you have a see logistic where you see like how much like kind of people involved setup is increasing. So whether you are shooting a see if you have 15 second ad you are making a stadium with 1 lakh people and making that in 30 second the cost is same.
Vineet
Hmm.
Vineet
Yeah, exactly.
Bijitesh
Yeah, client most of the time is a smaller film. It doesn’t work that way. But again, what happened? You are making a 15 second film in one house. So 30 second film in one house. Then you are making a 15 second film where you have three houses with different people. Then 15 second cost more than the 30 second. So you’re set up. It’s a logistic requirement set up. Then you want a high speed video. Then you want a food product.
which is like a thousand frame you are shooting, those are motion control cameras which maybe 10 second they shot, one shot, what is a motion control? It’s expensive, so you see lot of money for that. So this length has nothing to do with the cost as such that way. So it’s about what you are looking for on that 15 second, that cost. And what kind of people you want to get engaged with. See what happened in our world, it’s not only resources,
Vineet
Yeah.
Bijitesh
Talents are also resources and they are also expensive.
Vineet
And the whole testing has to sustain, right? It’s like all this talk about AI will replace everyone, everything.
Bijitesh
No, what happened AI will create a parallel part. It won’t replace. See, when animation came, people said film movie will be replaced by animation. It didn’t happen. It never going to happen because.
Vineet
Exactly.
Bijitesh
It’s basic science. You can’t replace realism.
in any kind of giving effort whatever you can’t replace that. That real thing, that reality and what happen? Technologies can give you images, can give you sounds kind of thing but that can’t give you emotion. That is a talent. So what happen that people see what a simple motion like I also say people. So now if you say that AI is coming.
So everyone will access, or everyone can make films and all. See, everyone has access of paper and pen for last 500 years. How much are the writers? How much people wrote novels or good writing? So it’s not about access of the logistics or resource. It’s about the thought. It’s about the mind behind it. That pushes the thing. That runs the controls of everything.
Vineet
Yes. Yeah.
Bijitesh
So in the same way, whenever I go making a video, I say, yeah, I visualise everything. But who is telling the story? That man.
Vineet
No, I’ve seen everybody wants to create content using AI, but nobody wants to read or watch beyond the other side. Like you put Martin Scorsese movie in a hall and you put in, like you say, okay, this is an AI generated, AI directed movie. We know where people are going to go. So nobody wants to be on the receiving end. So AI is like, like we are using it. It’s a tool.
Bijitesh
Cut it.
Bijitesh
No, it’s a tick. No, it’s a very easy. See, some purpose is good. Obviously, it has advantages. So I’m saying it will survive parallel again. See, AI is not an alternative of study narrative. So what happens is any format. So whether you do when you communicate with a narrative, it’s the person telling the story matters.
Vineet
Hmm, it’s a good one.
Bijitesh
Resource he use whether he uses small camera, big camera, AI, animation doesn’t matter. In animation also the story can be told very lovely way in a normal also. So those and this thought that people the brain is human. You can’t replace that. That has to be there. So it will survive. So you will see when your people are advertising game then the digital game will advertising will die. No, it’s all going parallel. Then this thing came.
Vineet
Yes.
Vineet
Yes.
Bijitesh
So suddenly, OTT came, people say it will kill the theatre. No, it won’t kill the theatre. It can’t kill the theatre. What happened? Early days there is a bad because of COVID happened, but it will go hand in hand together. It’s another because the population, in case people, viewers will increase, so more mediums will be generated. We are generating more mediums.
Vineet
Hmm.
Bijitesh
more approachable and everyone has a different purpose. So what happened? I say like, in LNN, what happened? Like I’m in corporate job, Saturday evening, I’m going to go out for a movie. That experience, OTT can’t give at home. You want to go out, experience that proper, and it’s a big thing. So it’s a experience. So people spend money to gather that experience.
Vineet
I’m out of vision.
Bijitesh
So whether it is OTT and how, so every, the purpose of that gathering, that enjoying that experience is different. So everything will survive. Nothing will die, nothing will go away. But yeah, more and more medium will add on. Because more and more viewership is increasing, more demand is there in market. So for AI also, and technology too, and again what happened, advancement of technology is good. What has sometime happened even for a normal, some narratives to tell a story.
Vineet
So yeah, technology is a tool.
Bijitesh
or to show somethings previous history like if before that technology we did have limitation we thought we could have done this way but there is no way to do it. The technology is giving you that access to go with your thought and then execute that. So it’s good we should welcome it and then what happen we should do whatever you are saying. We don’t just blindly follow it’s not like it’s like kind of trading yeah like people saying you don’t invest money no.
Do your research, figure out what working, what not working, then this is the going for it.
Vineet
Like I can do my concept generation and writing now in, I can do in two hours what would take me eight hours earlier. So I’m using a lot of way and it’s fantastic. But I don’t think it can replace me. I don’t think it can replace you. It’s not meant to be.
Bijitesh
Yeah, the better what happen, the process getting faster. But the thing is the thought, the brain, that’s yours. So it, you can’t take that away.
Vineet
be human. But on that note, I’m going to now move to a related note which is conceptualisation. What is your creative process when it comes to doing corporate ad films? How do you begin? Because you have now decades of experience in this line. One is, okay, I know what works. Like you have instinct, you have a gut for what will work.
The second is the discipline that comes with these decades of experience, right? This is my creative process. I will follow this for every ad that I make. How does your creative process actually work?
Bijitesh
see what happens that also depends on the brands coming. There’s a lot of brands here already I have worked with. So I know what they’re looking for, what they’re, like how they want to see it in terms of their product. So it’s, then what happened then you know, like you have done it enough. So then a lot of something what happened, but again every ad, every campaign come with a small script. The script comes to us as.
or idea come to us whatever then we start thinking on the basic level. So first reason for me is first thing if someone has given me 6 line written 6 line I want to make this ad and I want to say this why you want to say this.
Bijitesh
Once I get that answer, I know then what I have to do now. What is the purpose to say this? What is the purpose of this? Then the whole process of visual is happening. So what happens is that someone wants to say something, he wants to talk about a small story of a kitchen where mother and daughter are talking, some food product is happening. So you start thinking that this kind of conversation, this kind of talk happens to who?
with which category of people, which kind of house. And you start figuring out because this conversation can’t happen in Amman’s house. They don’t go to kitchen and talk all this, talking about things. See, even the high-end people, again, this conversation doesn’t happen in the rural area where there is no education level. That kind of conversation happens. So then you start figuring what is the target. And who has this kind of conversation. Now from there it starts.
Then our research starts, what happened, how this looks, how they talk. Then you tell them, okay, I want to make this story feel like it’s in Jhamshedpur or feel like it’s in Bangalore. So then our visual approach also changes. How it should look on that side, how they behave. In visual, I’m not talking only, for me, it’s not only light. It’s a combination of set, lighting and costumes.
Vineet
Like every prop, like set also then every prop has to make the whole thing So if I use this mug, my target audience will be me So this mug or this mug
Bijitesh
colors.
Bijitesh
So what was the setup happening? What will you do? Will you drink tea in a cup? If you are taking a sip, then you should drink it in a glass. Then people will think that this is me. See what happens? For those who are making it, until they feel it is me, they don’t connect. So that me who can happen when you do an ad for mug, which is like an 80 lakh car, your target is different. The people, the mug is different.
Vineet
I’ll leave it there.
Bijitesh
or a 10-lakh car or a 5 rupees baggy, the whole thing is different. So you have to understand what we are, like what client, brand, anyone expecting from it. And how you connect to those people. See, an individual we might not see in all this world, no? Like, so small town people come, they actually see more. But a lot of time happens, even like, I’m a like, eastern part of India. I don’t know the integrity of Kerala house inside, how it works.
Then you start figuring out how they do all these things. So it’s such a process. And then you start grabbing things. This works for the, you don’t take everything. Then you say for this campaign or this order, this works for me, this works for me. And then you put together things and then start it. Now your brain start working. How you want to figure this out together and put it together and make it believable enough for people also. So it’s an illusion. We have what we do.
we create an illusion. But that illusion has to be so real, people feel like they are in the part of it.
Vineet
Yes, yes. And it’s also, I guess, the mix of realism and aspiration also.
Bijitesh
Yeah, aspiration or what? Yeah, I mean, like part of what or what you are expecting it or the hope. Sometimes it’s a realisation or sometimes you give hope also. It’s a purpose. When you if you giving a same making a film on a mutual fund or investment, it’s there has to be a hope. So people go fall for it. You put making a cleaning products. There has to be a feel of security key. I’ll use this. My house will be jumping. I use this soap. It makes me beautiful.
Vineet
Cut. Yup.
Bijitesh
So every man has their own purpose. So on that aspect it happens. And then the base from base what they’re looking for if the whole process starts. Our own research starts off. Every simple work person needs some research. Look like you have done it so many times, you have to do this, this. But whenever the script comes, every script is different. And then some thing starts. You learn, come to know new things every day.
Vineet
And you end up like telling going back to the brand name, let’s completely subvert expectations. Let’s do a completely different thing now this time. Let’s… It means…
Bijitesh
That only can happen with very limited brands. That’s why I’m saying the newer people you can go more. The establishment doesn’t enter in too much. And what happened some brands are there who are open for experimental stuff. That is very minimized. Maybe one, 2% people, but they open. But the more bigger brands and all they have very different because they don’t want to take chance because what happened one product if they take the chance at the campaign doesn’t work.
This advertising and this campaign may be like little money. The product and that whole cost go for a toss. So they don’t want to take those chances.
Vineet
And also a company is also a series of a set of people, right? It’s a set of marketing manager.
Bijitesh
And it’s a hierarchy. So it’s like whoever meeting you or talking to you, it doesn’t have the power to say, take a call. Hierarchy, hierarchy, hierarchy. These things happen. With the bigger, I think that the brand gets bigger, it’s a thing. And then in between, the agency got involved. It’s not only brand. So agency has their own say, own things. Because the creative process, they are involved in everywhere. So there’s layers on things. So you have to see, it’s a team game, end of the day.
We have to like whatever if it’s ideas, I’m maybe I’m shooting on set. Finally, whatever scene on the camera is on me. But the whole behind that, there may at least 500 people’s opinions and he had to be involved in different layers, different places. There’s you can’t deny that, especially like bigger campaigns.
Vineet
Or do you…
Bijitesh
Or you want to do.
Like in between I was shooting something you have to shoot on That racing tracks go to abroad shooting racing taxes So the idea is that you have to do that someone want to make in a small room at home One lady is talking to cameras with hardly cause. So budget frame doesn’t matter in terms of like, it not matter in terms of budget frame. It’s not the brand doesn’t define or get that part related to the signage, it’s purely on script.
Vineet
is not a digital size.
Bijitesh
sometimes whether you are going for celebs or not. Budget goes up with the celebs, it is the same script which can be shorted 10, 20 lakhs maybe. You take a big celebs and it goes to 2 crore, simple. So it’s like that, but basic execution cost. So budget in terms of it’s not only all together I am telling the budget of execution is directed to the script.
Vineet
And now, okay, last set of questions, now last topic I want to broach is again, changes over the years that you’ve seen .. especially moving from basically… .. TV. So for example, if someone’s doing a mega IPL campaign, like when Danzo and Swiggy, they spent like a 100 crores plus on IPL in I think 2021.
then they are going to put like 3-4 crores, they are happy to put 3-4 crores into their production budget. They will then get in a cricketer, megastar, whatever. But if the primary purpose is, okay I am making a, you know, it’s for YouTube, it’s going to sit on my profile, get a few hundred thousand views in total. How has that shift actually impacted the creative and the logistical process?
Bijitesh
Uh… See what happening…
Bijitesh
It’s not like same setup doesn’t go on to that. It’s like, that’s why I’m saying, the YouTube videos and the purpose, it’s a different channel that it’s been created. The world, they used to make big campaigns or whatever and the small thing, their approach and the resource and the way of making is very different. Though I don’t know how the YouTube guys make it, but again, it’s obviously very cost effective in terms of very minimal cost they do because the purpose is different. That’s why I was saying.
Vineet
Hmm.
Bijitesh
It’s not about going for YouTube or online or Insta thing. It’s about who is making it and their purpose. Then, and the association they want from the people with that. So, if you have a big brand for a small Insta also, they make a proper film.
Vineet
So, but have you seen a shift? Like I know, I know I’m repeating myself here because we did discuss that. Have you seen a shift in the client’s purpose or their way of thinking because of this move from, you know, generally a lot of it is a lot of advertising now is Instagram first. So have you seen a conceptual shift in how they approach advertising or marketing?
Bijitesh
Noddy.
Bijitesh
Yeah, it’s there, it’s there, it’s there. What happening, more diversified now, like seeing is what happening, the client also, they are the youth, especially when the client want to reach to youth, more than not to establish people or middle-aged. Youth is not into television anymore. Youth is only on social media.
platform, internet, everywhere. So to tap them, to reach them, it has to be different. You have to think the way, go for the things they like, they want to see, accessible to them. So this whole process of approach filmmaking, marketing, whatever is changing. Yeah, I mean like that orthodox process is there, parallely is there. But again, to reach those people that this whole thing is
The new style of campaigning has started where you go for the social media and all those influencer using them even a small nowadays like directly talk the direct selling of the product. The first marketing people at home used to come and say take this, today it is done on mobile. Today the marketing people don’t come to the house. That changes there.
Bijitesh
Thanks.
Bijitesh
So, correct.
Vineet
And I think that is a good spot to end this. Thank you so much Biratesh, this has been a fantastic discussion. Having some one of your calibre and your experience talking to us. Thank you so much for joining us.
Vineet
And thanks everyone for tuning in. We will link of course to Bijitesh’s work, his website and all in the show notes. Thanks for joining us and see you all next week.
