Vineet

Hello and welcome back to photosynthesis, individuals podcast, videocast , whatever you call it, where we talk to some of India's most talented creative people about the art, the process, the skill, the talent and the business part of what goes into being a creative person in India and actually being successful at it, both in terms of the output that people deliver and are they creatively happy and the business side of things.

Today we have with us Surjit Pi, a very, very, very talented cinematographer who has basically got lots of experience working with a lot of big brands. Shaadi .com, Flipkart, IPL, Redmi, a lot of recent campaigns with humor, twists, all kinds of very interesting stuff. We will of course link to the work in the show notes, but let's get started on the discussion. Hi, Surjit, welcome to Photosynthesis.

Surjith

Hi Vinit, like really glad to be on this Like podcasts are not a thing that I regularly do I mean it's always good to be like you know trying something new Like I'm mostly like you know behind the camera so I think for a change like yeah

Vineet

Very happy to have you here.

Vineet

Yeah, yeah, you'll adapt to it very quickly. I want to start off with some of your recent ads I've been seeing feature either a twist or a very humorous kind of perspective. I want to ask you, you as the cinematographer, as the DOP, working with the director, working with the client, how do you actually look at a project? Okay, this is a funny ad, therefore it needs a certain kind of treatment.

This is a serious ad, this is a lifestyle ad, deserves a certain kind of treatment. Is it that clear cut or again everything depends on the project? How do you start the creative process?

Surjith

Creative process actually starts with the like in a chit chat or like you know jam with the directors that I work with and I think everybody do have their individual styles Some are like you know some of the directors that I work with are like you know extremely expressive and like you know very to the point to the fact that like you know some are like very precise like about what they want and some are precise

but like, know, collaborative at the same time. some people are just like, know, open books. So, and I think it has a lot to do with the expertise of the director that you work with and also like, you know, just how collaborative one is. yeah. And being a cinematographer, I think it's like like part technical and part craft, part art. Like it's

like in a jumble of everything. So when I come on board onto a project as a cinematographer, what I try to do is like, know, see what the director has put together so far, you know, and how I can like, you know, meet all those requirements. Only if those requirements are met, then like, you know, then only then I can like, you know, think about something, doing something on top of that.

So, I don't think it's right to force fit my style or what I think is right onto a particular project. So like you said, it could be something humorous or it could be something more of a drama or sometimes it's just a very Polish stylized product film.

Something like that. Sometimes it's just clinical. There is no humor involved. So what does the project demand? What does the story demand? What does the treatment demand? So discussions do start after the director. And some of the projects might have a heavy requirement on art, say. And then you involve with the other people, like production designer. You have a chat. Maybe you sit together with the director and the production designer.

Surjith

and like you discuss like you how you can elevate like you know different parts of a particular project and maybe even before the like shoot on the pre -production itself sometimes I end up having a chat with my colorist like you know or like you know VFX personnel like if some VFX is involved if some technical challenges are there I know I'm digressing a little bit but

how it is done.

Vineet

That's all digressing. fact, we will come to what shoot day is like. But actually, let's first get into what is your pre -production process like? How do you actually... So you've got this project. You know who the director is. You've done your research on the brand. How do you start your pre -production planning research? What's that thought process like?

Surjith

Yeah, so like working with the different directors, I mean, for the sake of this conversation, I will just put them into two categories. Directors that I've worked with before, like as in directors whose work I know very well how they are as in person, then that saves me from like a lot of groundwork, like, you know, digging into their work, trying to find their style. Even if I know their style,

I try to, like whenever I'm working with a new director, I make sure that I go through all their work. Okay. And I go through their work more than I go through, like, you know, how the, like, you know, brand conveys in their film. Because, like, I'm, when I'm on a project, I'm more answerable to the director than anyone. Like, you know, their vision need to be like, you know, transformed, like, you know, from paper should be put into, like, you know, visuals.

So I look more into that. So if it is somebody that I have, if it is one like, know, one of my constant collaborators, like there are a few directors with which I have worked on like, you know, multiple projects. If that's the case, like one step is like done. So I know like their thought process. Even if I follow somebody's work, I know work of a particular director, like working with

In person might be like a totally different process like how they are Like with people how they are on the sets. That is a totally different thing if it's Neither of these cases then like, know, start with like, you know digging deeper into their work See like, you know how they approach colors how they approach like, you know conversation like, you know Have they done any work in the similar genre like for example?

if it's a film for an FMCG product for example, have they done something in that space like if it is like, you humorous or like, you know, drama, like how do they generally approach something like that? So I do get, I necessarily do not make notes of it, but like this like artistic perception of the people that I work with, I think I do have

Surjith

I make a mental map out of it and then I get into okay you start with a treatment deck so when I come on board to a project as a cinematographer usually there is a treatment deck like at least a very brief one wherein like you know what is the like what is the motive of that film like what are we trying to communicate what is the visual narrative that has to be followed so

Usually these things would be in place but some rare cases like you know when working with relatively newer directors maybe they need a little bit of hand holding but I don't find anything wrong in that either so I just try to help because everybody starts at some point. So once we are past that like then we start the actual jamming process.

So before I throw something at the director, I want to see what all they have in mind. What are their likes and dislikes? So the concept is clear. are doing so and so concept for an FMCG brand, for example, or an automotive brand. So these are their preferred styles or look and feel. Then I'll also do my research. I'll also start looking at other references.

Or maybe if I have something on my reel, like, you know, I'll try to like, hey, can we go to this space? Like, you know, this particular look and feel. But I rather try not to do that a lot because as an artist, a technician craftsman, also want to keep doing things that you haven't done already. So I like look at other references here. How does this work? So I think like with a little

bit of back and forth you reach a consensus like okay this is the right direction and yeah and like I said it then extends to other departments like for example it's a interior so suppose though it's a it's a like you know like an ad film that involves like drama humor whatever and it's happening in a space like this indoor so how can we like you know prep

Surjith

up the space like you know what sort of palette should we go for in terms of color scheme like you know in terms of textures so that might that conversation might involve like probably will involve production designer or art director and yeah so it just keeps building from there.

 Vineet

Yep.

 Surjith

So this is the start and start to mid of the pre -production process.

 Vineet

And OK, so you've gone into a few interesting team, like the team strength. So there's the colorist, there's the art director, there's obviously a costume designer on the bigger set. What is your team like? As the cinematographer, as the DOP, what is your team like? Who all do you bring to the set?

 Surjith

So first and foremost, when I join a project, there won't be anything. It will be just me. But once I get past that, whatever that I mentioned, initial jamming with the director, I usually get on board my first AC, first spin cinematographer. And with whom, again, I might do a separate, similar jamming session. Hey, this is where we are right now.

 This is the look and feel that we are going for. And if there are any technical, like, you know, specifications to be discussed, I'll also share that with my first AC. And like, as part of the pre -production, we have something like something called a scout, right? Like, when you go to the location or studio and have a look at the place. And it could be done in one or two phases. One is where, like, you you do a normal scout or a recce.

 where you just go and see things like on a pretty blank slate, not a blank slate exactly, you know what has to be done. So you have that in mind and you go to the space. And there is another part of Recce called Tech Recce where you have all the departments, production design, entire cinematography team, entire direction team, may or may not have the costume department.

 depending on the complexity of number of people involved, complexity of the set work involved. yeah, so that's that. So basically when I go to a tech recce, I'll have my first AC with me, first AC with me and my gaffer. So gaffer is like head of the other department, works with the light unit.

 So I'll have my gaffer with me and if there are some rigging or some specific camera movement involved, might as well hire somebody called a key grip. So there is, I'm a little hesitant on digging deep into it because in this country, we are just starting to follow these terminologies more and more.

 Surjith

like very common in cities like Mumbai where I am right now but if you go to like you know I've worked in Bangalore like the longest of the time I worked in Kerala I worked in a couple of features so the terminologies differ like what a certain title mean in a particular industry might mean something else could be something else in another

 Vineet

Give me an example of an AC or even a key grip. What would the different terminologies be? Give me an example.

 Surjith

Key grip I think it would be same but the problem is like for example while working in Kerala I haven't heard like probably because of the like volume of the set that I worked in There were no like, know definite like, you know grip and electric departments for say I can give you another example so I worked in two Malayalam feature films and the second one I dop ed

 I was the cinematographer for that and on the previous one I was like first one I was assistant cinematographer. So then I realized it's like for example let's leave the camera department for a bit. If you look at the direction, directorial department, after director the main guy who is like responsible for the scheduling of the film like okay we have to do this scene and this scene, this scene.

 Like today we are doing scene number 14 32 and 58 like that the person who takes that call It's called chief associate that associate director or chief associate director. That's essentially What you call like, know first AD? In Hollywood or like, know in Bollywood and again, even if you take like a city like Mumbai I think terminology slightly differ When you like, you know go between like, you know long formats and like, you know short format like advertisement

 So, but like that's a, think a minor confusion or like, know, minor like, you know, terminology difference, but I mean, once you start working in the space, shouldn't bother you much. But again, like, you know, I like was still a bunch of episodes of this podcast and it was like really interesting. But when I said like, you know, terms like, you know, grip and electric, I

 it might sound a little confusing so just wanted to clear

 Vineet

few ADs with trends of mine but I've never heard the term first associate director in my life. First time hearing it. director, yeah.

 Surjith

Chief Associate Director and Associate Directors and then there are Assistant Directors. So that's a very regional cinema thing I think. Down the south, that's how people call. And also, even if you look at production, there is this designation called production controller who is essentially the line producer.

 In some other regions. So the terminology is changed but it's basically the same

 Vineet

And once you're on set, there is a lot of, course, now say the pre -production is done. Once you're on set, what, I'm going to twist this question around. What can go wrong? What has gone wrong? What all should you account for in terms of, okay, things going wrong during the shoot.

 Surjith

Okay, this could be like a little, I mean, not controversial, but anything could go wrong. And like, you know, in most of the sets, something will go wrong. And why people hire you, I mean, this shouldn't be the case, like, but on set, like, you know, is money, right? You have invested like so many lakhs and like, you know, cameras, lights, maybe a few lakhs in the getting the place.

 or a studio and you have vanity vans for the HODs and the actors and food for maybe 1500 people. So that's a lot of investment and everybody, most of the people are billed by hour per shift. So you have to finish the shoot in eight hours, 12 hours. If it goes, suddenly there is a shoot up in price.

 I mean, no producer would want that, right? That's their job.

 Like you specifically want to know like, you know, what could go wrong in what department?

 Vineet

without naming a project what has gone wrong, me examples that you were not prepared for, let's say at the time

 Surjith

okay.

 Vineet

Because the obvious one, delays, as you were saying, right? A 12 -hour shoot going into 16 hours suddenly, there's a huge rain happening on set, causing delays. Does equipment ever, like, OK, camera falls and breaks and you don't have a backup, has that kind of stuff ever happened?

 Surjith

Yeah.

 Surjith

In my journey of all these years, that has never happened, But if some of the expensive camera falls and breaks, some of the cameras that are being used, they are not... If you talk about film production cameras like the Alexas or the Winneys,

 They could come anywhere between like, you know 70 lakhs 80 lakhs 1 cr and that you know You don't even want to think about like, you know them things destroyed so

 Vineet

And you complete that with wires everywhere. And people care less with gaffer tape. So perfect combination.

 Surjith

Yeah, that that could.

 Surjith

Yeah, like the way unfortunately lot of things are happening like you know our like you know respect for safety or like you know safety of not just the equipment but safety of human life to that matter is like you know close to zero unfortunately I know things are changing but for example like you know there are some shoots in which

 you have this like you know constructions called rose trumps like those are the structures similar to the structures that you see outside buildings when they are doing a paint job or something like you you stack one after the other like they are basically like you know metal pipes sometimes you build them up to like you know like you know 40 feet 50 feet maybe 70 80 feet to put lights up while you are doing like you

 night exterior something like that and I have personally had the experience of like you know going on a rostrum that is 50 feet high and I'm not good with heights in general I am like I have mild vertigo. I don't do good with heights but then like you know these light men they do this on a daily basis like at least a chunk of them

 with no safety equipment, with no harness. No harness. Yeah, it's scary. like, you know, weather is so crazy in our country. There are like some parts it's like it gets like, you too hot. Like, for example, like up north, it's like pretty hot, right? It's still summer. I had a shoot in Delhi two days back and it was like, you know, quite stressful on my body. So people do all of this, like, you know, work at heights, work

 Vineet

No, don't know how to say it. It's good.

 Surjith

like you know massive amount of like you know electricity as Electric has art right and if you don't like you know use the like cabling properly Like you know cables are not laid out properly sometimes and somebody could trip and like you know somebody could get the shock like and Sometimes even if the cables are connected properly some of the lights They're unknown like very high voltage and draw in cinema of power

 and if sometimes lights are not maintained properly you could get electrocuted just by like you know touching them or like you know being near them so it's like dangerous that's one

 Vineet

We personally have been trying for our, I like shoots, we do shoots across the country for like small digital first videos. I've been trying to get insurance for shoots as a process and it's nearly impossible. It's quite amazing this combination of a lot of wires, a lot of technology, a lot of electrical stuff going on, a lot of people on set and the lack of a clear insurance.

 option in this industry, a standardized insurance product. It's quite crazy to

 Surjith

Yeah, I don't think we have insurance for equipment, proper insurance for equipment as

 Vineet

Yeah, I haven't been able to find anything.

 Surjith

Yeah, yeah, it's sort of insane, sort of insane where these days people, mean somebody is providing an insurance for your iPhone, but not for your life when you work on set, yes you get health insurance, but most of the health insurances don't cover when you are working in a riskier environment. So sets would be considered as a riskier environment when you are up on a roadstump or

 Vineet

Thanks.

 Surjith

40 feet high on a skywalk or catwalk, whatever you call it. Some of the studio floors are really high. Studio indoors, light from the top. So some of those walkways on top are 40 feet high, 30 feet high. That is still very dangerous. 30 feet drop could be really fatal.

 I've seen some of these guys, some of the guys stay up there and the walkways are literally just narrow and without some studios don't even have proper airing and some sleep there on that narrow, it's very dangerous. I know I keep ranting so much about the light men because I feel concerned.

 because everyday you see it, you try to tell them but it's like you you do it everyday. I what's the big deal is how they, some of them at least respond. I'm hoping all of that would change but like if you look at the other departments, like you know, probably like this happens all the time, like whether it's the features that I've worked in or like you know, ads that I've worked on, like you know, there could be like

 Vineet

It's getting good pace.

 Surjith

lot of miscommunication that happens with the art department. Maybe somebody else like you know printed the colors wrong or like you know got the wrong textures. Something that would not look nice on the camera and there was this music video that I shot like you know last year somewhere towards the end and the costume designer who was also supposed to carry the costume showed up like really late. So all of us were

 and we can't start the shoot without the costume.

 So what can you do? There is no point being mad at somebody or being angry at somebody. It happened. Now what's the solution? How can you catch up and try to finish it on time? Try to finish with minimal damages.

 Vineet

Scary. But yeah, I'm going to move on to a different topic, which is over the last five, six, seven, eight, nine years that you've been learning and doing this. How have you seen tech evolve and change your life? And I don't mean AI will replace all of us, is all bull crap, but practically speaking, what tech has helped you, what has changed, how is life different today than it was like five, six, seven years

 Surjith

Thank you for not going there.

 Vineet

is it different or it was?

 Surjith

I would like to say that I've always loved tech. So I remember when, like, know, in first year of my college, I did engineering, by way, I'm not academically trained to be a filmmaker or cinematographer, say. So in first year of college, I remember faculty asking all of us, like, what are your, know, so every part time, like, what are your interests? So I remember telling,

 that teacher that like you know had a good like interest in like know gadgets like electronic spec and all of that. I think that's been that way for quite a bit of time and yes a lot of things do happen like you know technology wise in the industry but you know what I don't think it matters as much as like you

 most people think because there are small small accessories i am not going into detail there are small small accessories that keep popping up here and there yes i would like to know i keep an eye on everything like i scrape reddit or scrape other forums or follow ton of filmmaking related channels on youtube i keep watching all the videos i would like to stay updated

These are just minor aids. But fundamentally, the more important things haven't changed a lot. It's what I like to be doing. For example, going back to the theory, the principles of filmmaking, how we approach a scene, how we approach a particular mood. We talked earlier in the beginning of this podcast.

 That hasn't changed, like, know, look and feel, like, you know. So means of achieving certain things might have, like, you know, changed here and there. And when it comes to, like, know, cameras, for example, like, you know, film production cameras, unlike, like, consumer or, like, know, prosumer, like, you mirrorless cameras, companies don't, like, you know, push out, like, you new camera models.

 Surjith

Just like that, like every year, like Sony or Nikon or whatever camera brands are doing, it's less frequent.

 Vineet

You'll be like, I bought a 50 lakh or 70 lakh camera last year, you can't be expecting me to upgrade every year.

 Surjith

Yeah, yeah, of course, of course. like, for example, if you take a brand like, know, ARRI, released like one of their most popular camera was like Alexa Mini, ARRI Alexa Mini. And they were selling it for like, you know, almost nine, 10 years till they stopped it. Like, you nine, 10 years. That doesn't happen in a prosumer world, And I mean, like, if you look at the numbers, great, maybe you can say.

 But it is what it is. Like it does things what you can get out of other cameras. Like it does what it does. Like it looks good when you watch it on big screen. It might not have like a lot of resolution, crazy numbers, but it just looks beautiful. The image just looks beautiful. So in the same or even more applies to the lenses.

 Surjith

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So lenses, for example, you know, nothing new happens to the lenses. Like, you know, optics is the same. In fact, what is happening is the exact opposite. Like, as far as cinematography and filmmaking is concerned, in past few years, there has been a trend where, like, you know, people started rehousing old lenses, like photography lenses, like, you know, like, it be something like

 old soviet lenses or like old Canon glasses they are being rehoused so there are like few companies that take the photography lenses and put them in like you know make a similar set of lenses with the same size housing with the same size thread marking so it's easier to be used out of film set so all those things are happening which is nice but essentially nothing has changed like in terms of lenses like you need good lenses you need good cameras.

 Vineet

But that actually, so my company, we've been talking to so many VC people, like venture capital people over the last couple of years. And so many of them are now coming back and saying, oh, won't Sora replace you? won't, like, I think Google's product is called a video or something.? As in replace, so won't the B2B client just go online, type the instructions, and get an ad, like a video

 Like the client, the marketing manager sitting in a company doesn't know all that, is not expected to know all that. Let's say you have a perfect AI generated video machine, type in instructions and you get the perfect biscuit video ad. Where is the narrative flow? Where is the concept? is the lighting? What is the most appealing to the customer? There's so many layers of creativity involved, so much technical skill involved.

 How do you replace that? One is, is the technology used by these people changing? And second is, is technology going to replace these people? No, technology is not going to replace these people.

 Surjith

Yeah, so some of these tools like before getting into that like you know I wanted to add something to the like, you know previous thing so Like I said like, you know, not a lot is changing with respect to the camera the lenses fundamentally Same there are changes definitely there are like really helpful changes as well. But maybe with respect to the lighting New things are like, you know, the LED technology has like, you know picked

 Vineet

Yeah.

 Surjith

quite a bit and but personally I love to use tungsten like because it's so like no matter how good the LEDs are like you know just so good on the skin like you know just you just can't beat it like you know given a chance I'll always try to use tungsten like if it's feasible

 Vineet

So on that very very specific point, think that is more of a habit thing or LED just can't replace or replicate that even with soft filters and whatnot? What's your thought?

 Surjith

So one thing like so the lights do have like something called the CRI like color orientation index. I think that's what it's called.  So the CRI of like you know tungsten lights are like you know very close to 100. So it just means like you how good it retains the color.

 of any particular object. For us Cinematographer, I allow shooting people more than I allow shooting product. I enjoy both, but lighting for human skin is the most tricky. I can do a particular lighting and it might look beautiful on you, but it might look horrible if I just replace you and put someone else

 So that is always a challenging part and like when it comes to like tungsten right like how it Reproduces or like the camera reproduce the skin color is just so beautiful Just so beautiful it feels so organic like it feels so like I think by like you know practice you get to tell it like you know okay, this is tungsten actually even though like you know tweak around and change the balance and make it look like white or anything okay, this feels good and

 Yeah, but like a lot of things are happening with respect to lighting like you know to make it more easier like you know different companies are making like you know ecosystems like to like effectively control the lights so a lot of tech and development is going to that side so that is very interesting that is always something I keep an eye on. I think like you know I don't want to like you know go further into it I would like to come to your next question.

 That was again about like you know, you like advancement and tech and like, you how it's affecting the industry, right? So Like you also mentioned AI, right? Yeah, so one thing I have to add to that is I Not for all the projects, but some projects at least I think I've used mid journey

 Surjith

Just in the conceptualizing phase where I usually tend to look at references. I look at references everywhere. So this particular ad is in this particular space. I know people who are good in that space. So like you are in any business, you have to know who the other people are in the business. It applies to all businesses.

 Like you can look at filmmaking as a business too. So when you are in filmmaking business, know, like, okay, these people are this particular director or this particular production are like, know, good with this kind of a treatment. know, okay. I look at their Instagram, like, know, Vimeo or whatever. Or sometimes I just like, you know, I don't restrict my like, you know, referencing to that. I'll go to

 like some websites like know short deck or like you know frame grab or like there are few websites like you know short deck where you can look at film grabs sometimes it just doesn't help you need something more like you are doing a studio shoot super conceptual like you know really fancy lighting like you know something futuristic or something like you know grunge or retro something but you can't just like you know find the right references

 Then you can try something like mid -journey and it just saves you a little bit of time in prep also. I can just give a prompt like Punjabi boy sitting in their grandmother's ancestral home, evening light, whatever. So suddenly it will give you a ballpark thing. This is something I like. Then I can share it with the director.

 How about this particular suit? What do you like about it? What don't you like about it? So that saves time. So it's not bad. That is not taking away anybody's job.

 Vineet

Yeah, We have the same philosophy. we use a lot of storyboarding, initial storyboarding that we share with videographers. We use Dali. We use a lot of GPT to set the structure for our concepts. But again, everywhere we are like one intelligent human on top to use this tech. Rather than, OK, a script will pop out of chat GPT. It will be fed into Dali. then will know, will AI generated video doesn't exist on the consumer side so far.

 Surjith

Yeah. Yeah.

 Vineet

But yeah, so one intelligent human on top and lots of specific AI tools to boost their thought process and productivity. Yeah, and I think that seems like a good way to look at it, for us at least.

 Surjith

Yeah, definitely.

 Vineet

Yeah, yeah. So I think while I wanted to go deeper into lighting, but I think that's a whole different, very long discussion in itself, very interesting one. I think this is a good stop, a good spot to pause now and end this conversation. Thanks, SUrjit. This has been very, very interesting for me. Thanks for joining us

 Surjith

Likewise, really good to be here and hope at least like I'm really hoping it would help somebody who is watching it.

 Vineet

I learned a lot, I think that's my metric. Am I learning stuff? So therefore, people watching should be learning. Great. Thank you so much, and thanks, everyone, for joining in. And yeah, do follow us, and we'll see you next time.