Sudhir Kumar Chaudhary on Determining the Visual Style of a Film

Vineet

Hello and welcome back to Photosynthesis Individuals podcast where we talk to some of the best creators in India and discuss the art, the craft, the business of storytelling and creativity in this country. Today we have with us a very, very, very special and a very senior guest, Mr. Sudhir Chaudhary, who's been a, who's a very renowned cinematographer, DOP, has worked on projects such as Drishyam 2.

Sudhir Chaudhary

Thank you

 Vineet

Sonu ke T2 ki Sweety. Sorry, I keep confusing this name with T2 ke Sonu ke Sweety. Yeah, he's got a very, very illustrious career. I'm not going to waste time on a bio because there's like decades of work here. I'm just going to get straight to it. So we welcome the podcast. Very excited to have you here because the creative process. One is the corporate side of things, but the film side of things is actually a very interesting one because this

Sudhir Chaudhary

Everybody gets confused with that.

 Sudhir Chaudhary

Thanks, Vinit. Thanks. Good to be here.

 Vineet

so many layers of creativity involved in giving a look to a certain film. And that's what I want to explore today with you to begin with, how has your approach to visual storytelling evolved over the years? Like what got you interested and how do you see this change happening in your own work?

 Sudhir Chaudhary

think when we all start as cinematographers coming out of film institute and all that, initially you're just trying to find a footing. your approach is, would say it's initially it's a bit cautious that you shouldn't end up doing something where you go something drastically different and it gets rejected by the audience.then fetching more work and exploring, it gets a little slow or difficult. So initially we're all cautious. We just end up doing neat work and all that. But as you find the footing and things progress, we start exploring. start, you know, we start, you know, going out of the comfortable zone and doing something. you can call it extra ordinary. That's the approach that I took as well. Initially, I started with a few ROM comps. So from my footing. And then I started exploring projects like Section 375, Blurr, Drishyum 2, stuff like that. So this had been my approach.

Vineet

So that's an interesting one because a personal style that one develops over the years. At what point in your career did you feel confident enough? Look, this is the approach I should take for this project. And you feel confident enough that look, I'm going to tell the director, this is how we should do it versus early in the career. As you're saying, this happens to a lot of people. You don't want to be too out of the norm in the first few years. When did you feel that change coming in and what led to that change?

 Sudhir Chaudhary

See, think the first two films of my career were rom -coms. So it wasn't like I was trying to do a rom -com kind of a look for a film which demanded a lot of contrast or different kind of shot taking and all that. So I chose subjects which were rom -coms. You could get away with just clean images and neat images and pretty images.

 From my third project, I remember my third project was Akashvani, it was a romantic film. From there I started creating shafts of lights and creating mood, going a little high on the mood, less on the gloss. So it was from my third project which I started doing that. But having said that, it was the choice of films that I made after my second, first two films.

 I started choosing films where I could shoot in that way. Because it's going to be quite wrong to have a rom -com kind of an approach on a drama or a thriller kind of an approach on a rom -com. You understand? So you choose your script in such initial stages, you're just choosing rom -com so that I can just get my footing. Then I chose my scripts.

 Vineet

Can I assume from that that you feel that rom -coms are easier to style for, visually style for?

 Sudhir Chaudhary

Rom com's a nice bright colorful brightly lit so it's yeah let the the let the industry know that okay there's a cinematographer who's come do a good song or something and yeah you kind of get off your thing but yeah that that style that you're talking about that's something which i think nobody has a style style it is always the script which kind of derives or kind of.

 Sudhir Chaudhary

How do I say it? It has its own demands for a certain look, for a certain texture to it. You understand? So we try to achieve that. try to justify the script what it wants and that becomes the style of the film. it gets... Correct. Correct. Like for example, Drishyam 2 and Blurr. Blurr, both of them were dramas. Both of them were kind of thrillers. But they both had very drastic looks.

 Vineet

Like a serious film would require a certain tone of course and a comedy rom -com would require a brighter tone. Like a brooding film, I would not expect to have a bright tone, obviously. But so is there, does that, does some aspect of it make it more challenging? So would you say a brooding film, a drama, a serious film, which has a certain, you know, a drastic, very obvious color tone, does that make it more challenging or just different?

 Sudhir Chaudhary

Cut it. No, it doesn't make it challenging. It's just that you have to think beyond a certain point. Like suppose if I compare it with a rom -com, you're not thinking about, say, how a mood of a scene is gonna be on an emotional level. In a rom -com, if there's a heartbreak scene happening, we can still get you the lighting flat. You understand? But in a thriller, if somebody's getting heartbroken, so you have to involve yourself more in creating that sort of a mood. finding that sort of a world. It's not just about images, it's basically right at the pre -production level. We start planning it accordingly.

 Vineet

Yeah, it's obviously not just color correction. this, yeah. In fact, can you, yeah, sorry to interrupt, but can you take me through how you look at pre -production for a rom -com, a light rom -com versus how you look at pre -production for a brooding dark serious thriller.

 Sudhir Chaudhary

Correct. Photography too. See for a rom -com I usually sit with the process is the same. It's the choice of colors, the choice of exposure levels, where you're to place, where you're going to bracket the film. The choice of lensing, know, that changes. when you are a romcom you are shooting a little flatter you are shooting more bright, more colourful, more vibrant more neater compared to sorry

 Vineet

Can you define for our audience and partly also for me what you mean by flatter in this context?

 Sudhir Chaudhary

Flatter in a sense like I want to want my subject to be, how do I say, to be like lit dark in a rom com. I want them to have a fresh, neat, clean look. Even lighting, even if you have some sort of a contrast going, has to be a pleasant kind of lighting. The light has to be perfect. The actors need to look pretty and...

 Vineet

on both sides. So even lighting from both directions.

 Sudhir Chaudhary

That's the approach. in a drama, you can choose depending on the level of drama and the thing, you can choose how gritty you want to go. Sometimes you might end up going topish. Your eye sockets might be dark. But that approach will work on a thriller.

 Vineet

So I've heard the saying that photography but also videography is sort of like 20 to 30 % tech, understanding the tech. Another 30 to 40 % of creativity and craft and the rest is all just lighting. How true is that in your career and how has that changed? Like I feel, I've heard a lot of very senior people say that lighting becomes everything and that's how you can shape the story.

 Sudhir Chaudhary

I think lighting is everything to me. When I shoot, I mostly concentrate most on lighting. For me, defines. Lighting is the language. I mean, you can change the lighting and things can change from here to there.

Vineet

if the whole mood changes.

 Sudhir Chaudhary

Yeah, so, everything is fine. mean, it's a decision which is made. Like, suppose...Suppose lensing, what kind of lenses I'm going to use for a certain film. I want to stay wide and close or whether I want to shoot tele-tele. That's the choice I make in my pre -itself. I'm going to stay in the 65, 75, 85, 100 range on a romcom. OK, probably some. Things look prettier. Things look prettier on a tele lens. You understand?

 Vineet

Yeah. So like in my head, so right now when you're talking about rom -com versus a thriller, I have basically Pyaar Ka Panchnama and Drishyam 2 basically going on in my head right now. I'm trying to compare. And yeah, I am thinking that a lot of, there were a lot of closeups in Pyaar Ka Panchnama. And Drishyam is all about the, the, the atmosphere, the environment, like a 35 mm type environment is, is my understanding.

 Sudhir Chaudhary

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, I think instead of Pyarka Panchanam, if you compare Pyarka Panchanam 2 and Rishyam, you will see that drastic difference in approach. PKP 2, we were still, it still had a certain quality of drama in it, which was very new, which not many people had seen. So we did have approach of going a little wider on in the drama portions. In Pyarka Panchanamma 2, we didn't get into that. We just stuck with a lot of telly lenses and all that. But if you go with Drishyam, you'll see a close up of 35 lens or a 50 lens. If you see blur, blur.

Vineet

Does become more important in the in general? Can we say that in general broadly the environment is it more important in a thriller?

 Sudhir Chaudhary

Sorry. See environment is important in everything actually. It's just that in a thriller, the environment plays a very important role.

 Like in a thriller, a dark room has a character to it. Whereas in a rom -com or a comedy film, the background is just to make things look pretty or nice. It doesn't play a role as such.

 In a thriller, we are placing elements in a room to kind of enhance the feeling of fear or suspense. There's a candle lying in a corner, burning candle, and rest all is dark. It's just there to imbibe some sort of a feeling, some sort of a fear in the character.

 Vineet

That's an interesting one. in fact, before I move on to props, one more question on lighting, then if someone wants, feels that, they've got the technical part, right, but now they want to focus more on the lighting part or rather the technical part of camera work. Correct. Now they want to really upscale their lighting. What's a good way to actually learn to get better at this? Just watch movies and is there, would there be a couple of movies you can recommend to actually own your craft?

 Sudhir Chaudhary

There are so many films one can approach and look at them. I would really recommend watching a lot of European films for lighting. Look at a lot of paintings, paintings from Rembrandt and Caravaggio. You'll see European painters had an approach to painting.

 Vineet

Give me an example.

 Sudhir Chaudhary

I don't know how true it is but at Karavaju I believe he used to light looking at a person in a mirror and he used to light the subject in one sort of shaft of light coming through a window and all that. So he had a certain way of looking at characters and that's what he brought onto his canvas. So every painter had a style and in cinematography or photography, we actually adopt that. So I think that's the approach one should have if somebody wants to improve their lighting.

Vineet

That's interesting. I'm now going to move on to props. Are props also, do you think equally important in a rom -com as in a thriller? Or are they more meant as clues? Watch out for that.

 Sudhir Chaudhary

Yeah, definitely they

 They are meant for that. Like a prop in a rom -com is, like I told you, it's meant to make things look a little prettier and neater. So we choose that sort of a prop. Whereas in a thriller, a prop itself is like, if you see...

 Where have we placed our scenes? We placed our scenes in library, you know, where the remains of that body are kept. We could have kept it in some sort of a room, but it's a huge library, just to increase that sense of thrill. If you see Akshay Khanna's introduction, it starts with a chess, where he's playing chess alone. You understand? So that prop kind of adds to the thrill. Look here is a man who's like...

Vineet

And is there an optimum mix of, let's say, dialogue in a scene versus props that you're expecting the audience to basically focus on in a particular scene? Like, if I'm supposed to focus on the atmosphere around the guy and maybe pick up clues, look, it's a thriller. The audience is supposed to look out at these things in the background. Is there an optimum mix that, you know, maybe dialogue should be less so that audience can focus on this or in a wrong...

 Sudhir Chaudhary

Good. See, if you notice, if there are lot of dialogues, then the scene is designed in such a way that nothing distracts.

 Vineet

to an 85mm type scene.

 Sudhir Chaudhary

Yeah, nothing distracts them. Okay. But in case there are no dialogues and suppose I'll give an example of blur again where Taapsee comes in and she's trying to search for her sister. So there are no dialogues as such. So what you've done is gone wide and 16 and we're just showing the place close of the audio system which comes on when the power comes in. The camera is close to the ceiling lamp.

when the power comes in. So we're showing just the end, because we don't know dialogues. So letting the hows tell a tale, you know. She's basically searching. Yeah, sometimes when a scene is a dialogue scene, we just, we're not, the background might still be the same. But we are distracting the audience from there. We're trying to...

 Vineet

So that it was a little character in the movie.

 Sudhir Chaudhary

let the audience concentrate on the dialogue.

 Vineet

Yeah. So there is a good mix of, you know, in effect, giving the audience clues on what to focus on. Right. So if it's an 85, yeah.

 Sudhir Chaudhary

Yeah, that's what cinematography is. We need to direct the audience eye to where we want.

 Vineet

So the director is basically telling you the overall vision for the film and then translating that into visually the scene by scene and what each scene should look like and where the audience should be directed, what they should be watching because it's a 70 mm screen, everyone can't be focusing everywhere on the screen. That comes from the DOP, visually where the audience should

 Sudhir Chaudhary

Yeah.

 Sudhir Chaudhary

I would say that comes from the DOP. think it's like if I describe a shooting day, first thing that we do when we land up on our film set is we stage a scene.

 It's not like we planned that months in advance. We planned where the house is gonna look, how things are gonna be on a set. But on the day of shoot, first thing we do is we stage the scene. This is where he's gonna come in from, this is gonna be this. I say, break down kar liya. And this happens along with the director. The director stages the scene. If I have a suggestion, I give my inputs. and then finally we come to a decision that okay this is what it is and then we start lighting and then we start filming it but sorry

 Vineet

How much of this is pre -planning and how much of this is on set?

Sudhir Chaudhary

I think staging mostly is done on set.

I have never worked with a director who has planned staging beforehand.

 On Drishyam, my director was very clear what he wanted. We knew that, okay, if this is the room, or if this is the location, we'll be seeing only these two accesses. And this is gonna be my wide. How we're gonna stage it, we'll see it on the day of shoot. So I knew exactly, okay, my background and this background on the other side. So accordingly, we got only those portions decorated, or propped, and lit up accordingly.

 But mostly because you know when it's a shoot like if I'm a director on a film I would keep wanting to think about the scene right till the moment I come to the set. You I might come with something extraordinary on the day of shoot. You know it was like Lamba scene on the day of the shoot I might decide let's do this in a one single take. You understand? So...

 Vineet

and but then

 Sudhir Chaudhary

That's when the director is at his best. Finally, this is what I feel is the best thing to do. And so accordingly, we stage and do it.

 Vineet

And does that.

 Sudhir Chaudhary

During prep, it's mostly... ...where to shoot, how to shoot... ...that's plan. We'll shoot in this village, we'll shoot in this college. this college, we'll this scene and in this corridor, we'll this. We breakdown in prep. But how to execute it... ...that I think... ...most of the time it's happening on set on the day of shoot.

 Vineet

But equipment wise does that make it a bit of a challenge that you have to prepare for a lot of potential scenarios.

 Sudhir Chaudhary

Mostly when... If there is a special shot that the director's mind, then I think he informs me in advance that okay I am looking at a top shot in this room, how are you going to get it because we don't have space to put in a crane or a jib. So just have that in mind that some sort of rigging for the camera is going to happen on the day of shoot.

 Vineet

And does that, do you feel that that requires a certain amount of tech knowledge from the director's part also? Are they all equally aware of lighting scenarios, equipment requirements?

 Sudhir Chaudhary

They need not. They need not. If they have something in mind, they can always discuss. They can always give a call to me and even if sometimes it's something that I don't know about. I'll do my research. I'll connect with grips and rigors. Something can be done. Sometimes, you want the camera to fall like this. So you can't just take the camera and just drop it. So you need to get a rig made. So we the prior knowledge of how to

 Vineet

And what's your team like? Whom do you really rely on? Who are your fixed people and whom are you like, okay, this is an important role, but I will go along with, you know, I'm shooting in a different city. I'll hire someone there. Versus who is your key team that has to be with you during the shoot.

 Sudhir Chaudhary

So I'll have an associate cinematographer who's probably someone who's worked with me over a period of four or five years or last three or films. usually I take apprentice people. If somebody wants to assist me, I usually, I don't get a second AC all of a sudden. I usually get people on the last leg and gradually groom them up. If somebody wants to go, they're free to go.

 But I've never taken somebody in my team who was like a first AC and who joined me as a first AC. So I always groom people, bring them up to others and then they go independent.

 So mostly these are our second, there's an associate cinematographer. Then I have focus blurrers which keep changing. Sometimes somebody is not available so I'll get somebody else. And I have a gaffer who's my own person. These days a lot of light units provide gaffers from the light unit but I prefer to work with my own gaffer.

 Vineet

is that industry.

 Sudhir Chaudhary

So Gaffer is someone who helps me light. If I need something special to be done, he'll do it for me. I want something, some big light source to be cut. So he knows how to get it done.

 So that's the core team. Focus Pullers, Associate, a Gaffer and probably a second assistant cameraman, who's probably big.

 Vineet

So one question I had when you mentioned the first AC, you said that your approach is to never hire someone who's already been a first AC. You will always hire someone slightly, you know, one level lower and then, you know, bring them up one or two or three levels lower. Is that a standard industry approach or is that your approach, this is how I am comfortable working with people in my team? It seems like a fairly general.

 Sudhir Chaudhary

Yeah. See, what happens is I have a certain way of working like every other DOP. So sometimes when a new person comes in, so I'm depending if he's coming at that as a chief or something. So I am expecting him to do things my way. And he might not understand that, what am I saying? Whereas if somebody who's know, who's groomed under me, even if I give him a cue, he'll understand what I want. So that makes things very easy for me.

 Vineet

Interesting. And how do you look at the growth of such an associate cinematographer? Are these the people who are eventually going to become DOPs on films themselves?

 Sudhir Chaudhary

Yeah? Yeah. like three of my assistants are GOPs. they would have done.

 Vineet

I know some of them become directors themselves after that or does it happen often? Do people go from one to the other fairly commonly or is it a fairly rare occurrence that you are seeing?

 Sudhir Chaudhary

That is their choice.

 Sudhir Chaudhary

You're talking about DOPs turning directors. That happens quite often. See, directing is like finally graduating. Everybody wants to eventually direct. So a lot of DOPs go and direct. But one has to be really skillful to turn into a very successful director.

 Vineet

DOP Stunning Directors.

 Vineet

And how do you look at your own career in terms of your own, like what projects make you the happiest? Is there any specific project that you were like, okay, know what commercial success is important, but this is the project that I really want and this is the project that I did and I'm super happy that I did it. Very like personal feeling of

 Sudhir Chaudhary

There are... I really loved what I did on Drishyam. Blurr is very close to me. There was a film called Ladykillers which released I think last year. So I was not the DOP in the film, somebody else was filming it. But I had the opportunity to just work around 12 -15 days on that film as a DOP. Because of dates issues and all that. And I really enjoyed working on that film. So...

 Yeah, like there are times where they're doing commercial films and all that but once in a blue moon you'll get a script which is like really nice and you're really keen to jump on.

 Vineet

It was the funniest thing that's ever happened to you on set. But in hindsight, it's quite funny that day, were like, damn, how do I manage this now?

 Sudhir Chaudhary

funny.

 Vineet

funny or chaotic on that day later in hindsight. Remember that when that happened.

 Sudhir Chaudhary

So many times it happens sometimes. Mostly it happens when you're filming outdoors.

 You're basically playing along with the sun. You can't control sun. It will move. It will take its course. So sometimes it happens that a scene is, the director is not happy with performances and a lot of re -takes are happening. So a sun which was like a backlight some time back, post -lunch it's like a frontal light. But since it's all committed and all that,

 so you have to still create the same field there has to be a strong backlight the sun cannot be directly on the actors face so such days when the day is over you try to think damn what could have I done so that this was not a problem.

Yeah.

 Vineet  

And are there any directors you would love to work with?

 Sudhir Chaudhary

There are so many. I really enjoy Vishal Bhardwaj's films. Let's see if I ever get to work with him.

 Vineet

and you have a project of your own in mind in the back of your mind somewhere that one day I am going to make this movie.

 Sudhir Chaudhary

Haan hai, I have a couple of scripts when I think that I think I should direct when the urge is strong. I'll put it forward.

 Vineet

What are you working on these days? What all is going on in your life these days?

 Sudhir Chaudhary

See at the moment there is post production of RAID 2 happening which is like still on the edit. Another month we should be going into the color correction and all that. And I am filming Dede Pyaar De 2. And...

I by Jan I'll be on to my next.

 them all for.

 Vineet

For one last question on that point, post production, what is your on a daily basis involvement with the edit team when it comes to post production? Because you're obviously setting the bounds for the look of the movie. You've already done the pre -production and the production.

 Sudhir Chaudhary

Thank

 See, I don't involve myself on the edit because I personally don't like going to a place where already there are too many heads working their best. I don't want to be another input there. Because I think during shoot, we've gotten all the footage. Now it is for the edit team and the director to like...

 get into the best of course once once it is done I am called to give an opinion and what I think about it but I don't I don't I don't

 Vineet

So you go straight to the.

 Sudhir Chaudhary

I don't think I've ever suggested something to change or tweak or something. I just say whether I like the way it has been done or think it's for the editor to do it and the director to play their part there. But post edit, when the color correction happens, I think that's where I come into the picture in post production.

 Vineet

Is that, they show you a couple of scenes, this is the kind or like straight first cut and then now we'll go into CC. Is that how it works?

 Vineet

Be with you.

 Sudhir Chaudhary

No, see edit keeps happening but an overall structure is created the film. know this is it and we are still refining it, probably shorten the length a bit and all that. That keeps happening. But a structure and a so called final edit is there when the film is sent for grading. So I start on to that. After if there some changes then the EDL is updated. I don't even come to few frames gone from here, a few frames gone from here, know, stuff like that. Probably a scene or two might go off because as a production also it keeps showing the film for suggestions and feedbacks because then it is something which needs to be a commercial entity. Whether it...

 The film has that structure for it to be a success whether it is dragging, know, that sort of a call is taken in the end after everything is done. And then they this scene or that scene, it's not adding to it. So that call happens at last moment. And then the ideas are updated in the timeline. Till then, grading is

 Vineet

So, is a poor 3D.

 Sudhir Chaudhary

Yeah, grading color timing.

 Vineet

Great! I think post -production is a good spot to end this. Thank you so much for your time, Sudhir. It's been fantastic. Great learning experience for me.

 Sudhir Chaudhary

Thank you so much, Vinit. It was fun having a chat with you.

 Vineet

Thank you very much. And thanks everyone. Thank you for tuning in and we'll see you next time.

 Sudhir Chaudhary

See you.