Vineet

Hello and welcome back to photosynthesis individuals podcast where we talk to some most creative folks in the country, but we talk about the art and the business and the culture of photography, videography, filmmaking in India. Today we are touching upon an area we have actually never gotten into before. It's a... I would say it used to be a niche but now it's growing a lot in India and that is maternity photography. We have with us today Muskaan Kapoor who runs Little Toes. She has been doing this for now quite a few years and she's learnt from some of the best people in the country and now she's...

 Littletoes

Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me here.

 Vineet

actually doing some fantastic work and I will just jump straight to the discussion. Hi, Muskaan. Welcome to the show.

 Vineet

thrilled to have you on board. Maternity photography. Give me an intro of your background. How did you get here? How did you start? It's a niche area.

 Littletoes

So I had science in my 11th, 12th. Then I did my, I am a management student. So I did my master's in business administration from Narsee Monjee. And then after that, COVID happened. So I started capturing my niece. She was very small. She was like one year old at that time. And I was about to go to London for my, I was about to go to a lot for my future study.

 Vineet

Hmm.

 Littletoes

and then Covid happened of course. So just as a hobby I started clicking my niece, she was just one year or two years old. And then once the lockdown opened and I was about to you know give my exams again and then I thought why shouldn't I start this turn my hobby into my passion. So post Covid only I opened my studio and started doing baby shoot, maternity shoot.

 But at that time this niche was not so much in demand. I used to get like one shoot in a week or two shoots in a week. And I was pretty happy about it because I was really enjoying it. But as I grew, as the market grew in this specific niche, I've learned so much and this niche has grown at an enormous level. And right now where I am, I have so many competitors, so many people, every second person has started doing the same because...

 What other people perceive is that this field is very easy to capture. You just have to click the kids or click expecting mothers. So this niche has really grown and I have also grown with the time when I think the main roles are responsible for. My category is my niece who is now turned four years and I never stopped clicking her once I started.

 Vineet

So that's interesting. So the interest on the shooting kids part came first because the love for children was already there and that's what actually encouraged your interest in photography. It's not like you became a photographer and then found that I should have a niche.

 Littletoes

Love was... I was very fond of children from a very early age. I had my niece, I had my cousin and I used to love them

 Littletoes

careers.

 Vineet

So a lot of these stories, in fact, I've been speaking to a lot of the younger photographers. Sorry, I'm previous generation, so I'll use that term. A lot of these stories came out of COVID. The lockdown, generally a horrible time, but that first six months phase where everyone was just locked in time. So much creative output actually seems to have come from that time. A lot of the photographers, a lot of street photographers,

 Littletoes

Hehehehe

 Vineet

I in fact got into pet photography around that time as a hobby and again same like history right, slight interest in photography but I used to be very very fond of animals so its covid lockdown time is when I had adopted a cat for the first time decided to adopt a cat.

 Littletoes

I think lockdown has been a golden period for us.

 Vineet

It's been a creative goldmine for a lot of people, like an unfortunate time, but yeah, it showed a lot of people that look, should be focusing on these things.

 Littletoes

Yeah.

 Yeah, because I honestly started writing journals, started writing vlogs, started doing photography. I did a lot of things which I don't think I'll ever be able to do it in this routine and in this pattern of my life that is going on. That was a golden time for me. And also I've seen my friends. They've also found themselves doing different things that they wouldn't do if it was not that lockdown time.

 Vineet

Hmm.

 Littletoes

So it's been a blessing in disguise for us. It was a tough time, but I think... Yeah. It came out to be pretty nice for us.

 Vineet

I know it was a weird time but yeah.

 Yeah, so how did you start? So you started, so you realized through photos of your niece that you are interested in this. I'm guessing you still didn't think at that time that no, this has to be full time career. It can't happen zero to one, right? There would have been a phase that let me see if I can find some work. How did that begin? How was your, what was the beginning of your journey like?

 Littletoes

Yeah. Yeah.

 Littletoes

Good night.

 Elect.

 Littletoes

So, I have my 3BHK home and I converted one of my room into a full time studio. So, at that time I was not aware about the lighting, the cameras or everything. So, I had all my pocket money put into my first camera. I got my first gear and I was pretty nervous because no one in my family was supporting and they were like...

 Where? Where were you going abroad to do your MBA? Now we are putting all your money in this camera and everything. So I was pretty scared at that time but then I thought that watch the ham, I am so young, let's try it out. If it doesn't work, then it's okay. Abroad is not going anywhere. We can anyways go abroad next year. So I converted my room into my studio space and then I started capturing babies. Then I went to outdoor shoots to capture babies and I used to get...

 lot of compliments that you were so young and doing so good and even at one time it was compliment and other time they used to doubt me will you be able to do it like you were just i was just 21 when i started today were like you will be doing this shoot who is the owner and i'm owner editor marketing everything i'm doing on my own so yeah that's what i started and it got pretty good

 At the time, after one year, I had shoots that couldn't come into my room. I wasn't able to do all my shoots in one space. So I had to take in commercial space outside my home. So just in one year, I got to know, okay, I was meant to do this. And it was a great experience. This one year of hustle and everything, it was very nice. I think it was a fabulous journey.

 Vineet

And how did you start getting work? Just friends, Instagram?

 Littletoes

Sorry. Yeah, Instagram has been like the number one thing for me. Till now also, like 90 % of my clientele comes from Instagram only. There are Google ads, there are referrals of course. But Instagram has been one of the backbone to my industry. Also, plus I think these days there are so many influencers, mom influencers of course.

 who are ready to collab with you and they give you good reach, good amount of reach and good rep fills and everything. So this started. But Instagram was my main thing. Plus I distributed my posters also in the morning along with the newspapers. Like I used to wake up at 5 o 'clock and then I give you, you know, distribute pamphlets along with the newspapers to get the shoot done. Because at that time there was not so much awareness about this field that okay, baby has to be shot too. I have to get the shoot done too.

 So it went like that.

 Vineet

And did the flyers work? Did they help?

 Did the flyers help? Did they get you business?

 Littletoes

Not really. Not really. Used to found them there and there lying over there. I used to get.

Vineet

I was hoping your answer would be yes they really had. Because three times in my life I've distributed flyers for something or the other and they've never had. I was hoping to hear a positive example for once. The flyers, yes they have.

 Littletoes

I used to wait, I used to hold my phone that today there are going to be a lot of calls. Flyers are gone but no, nothing helped. Instagram helped, referrals helped. Word of mouth marketing helped but not the flyers and everything. Didn't go that how much I planned.

 Vineet

Huh.

 Vineet

Interesting, interesting and one question on your technical journey because the rest I want to focus on the creative part. What camera did you buy? How did you decide to buy it? Is that enough? How did you get into lighting? What was your journey there? Right? Because studio shoot, like outdoor shoots, great. Figure out the right sunlight, figure out golden hour, right? Figure out the shade. Studio shoots mean a lot of lighting, right? A lot of technical expertise on that side also. So take me through that part of the journey.

 Littletoes

So there are few international photographers Kelly Brown and Anna Brand specifically so they provide online courses they are on a pretty hefty amount like they charge 50 ,000 one lakh for one hour video so that much yeah so they helped me plus

Sorry?

 Vineet

50 ,000 for a one hour video, is that good?

 Littletoes

Yes, yes, it was that good. So of course I couldn't afford that at that time. So what I get used to get their bits and gifs from YouTube and everything. So the thing is for the newborn shoot, you just need one light. That's it. Because it has to be very, very minimal light that comes into the newborn's eyes and everything. Even for the baby is the shoot also. So I figured out that. But that light itself was very costly. So I didn't buy it. So I used to have sunlight in my room.

 So I did not use any artificial light at that time. So just use sunlight and one very basic DSLR camera. I started with Nikon. I'm still in Nikon by the way. So I started with Nikon which was like around 70 ,000 with body and I didn't buy any lights because I had...

 Vineet

Yeah.

 Littletoes

Lights were never an issue for me.

 Vineet

nice and great so that's on the technical side and you still on that journey you have your two three lenses I'm guessing that much

 Littletoes

So now I have like, I have my three studios in Delhi. I have one studio in Chandigarh. So I have my full team working under me now. So it's pretty good going these days. But again, at times it gets a little bit because you know, people do want something new every day because they also don't want to do the same thing which is on my Instagram. And they're like, you can post our photos on Instagram only if you do something different. So we have to do everything. We have to do...

 everyday something different and unique for them which I love so this is the thing.

 Vineet

And now I am going to get into photography vs videography Photography is for a lot of people their first love It seems to me that you are also more on the photography side But Instagram's algo sort of requires sacrifice to the video gods It requires reels I am guessing a lot of customers also do they now ask for reels? How does that work? What's that trade -off like?

 Littletoes

See ya.

 Littletoes

Every customer, every customer, so usually I do not have any video in my package but every customer who had an inquiry they first talk about Reels and then they talk about the pictures because Reel is so much like everybody wants the Reel and even they are asking me mom what are we going to do with the pictures? We only put Reels on Instagram. It's their motto nowadays so Instagram has taken over the Reel section a lot and I think for the... If we have taken a backseat now it's more about the video now. The more about of you know...

 Vineet

Thank you.

 Littletoes

They have their process in mind that more views will come than this. We have to make the first 5 seconds very interesting so that we can get more views and everything. It's all about Instagram Reels nowadays. Instagram Reels is very common, very popular. Everybody wants it. Everybody needs it. So none of my customers goes on from my studio without a reel. They want a reel.

Vineet

Thank you.

 Littletoes

be it a maternity shoot, newborn shoot, baby shoot, everybody wants a reel. And so I do product shoots as well. So even product shoots demand reels nowadays. Product shoots is just not product shoots. They want shoot plus videography, both.

 Vineet

And this would, I'm guessing the reel part also is broken into two. One is the BTS part, which is more for you. And the like a well produced, maybe a slow mo reel of the cake. Like how do you think about the reel process? Because videography is very different from photography, right?

 Littletoes

Yes.

 Littletoes

Yeah. So for the maternity reel or for the newborn reel as well, the reel has to be very emotional, you know. It can't go with the beat, beat, beat music. It has to be very heart touching, very emotional. It has to be in slow mo. It can't be very fast and go like come and go. So what I usually do is I usually to put a personal touch inside the video. I ask parents to give a 10 seconds bit.

 Vineet

Hmm.

 Littletoes

just a 10 second bit of how you are feeling of having a baby. So they give a 10 second bit and while they're saying I make those.

 Littletoes

My clients are like I had tears in my eyes after watching this video and I get responses like this because their personal touch is on fire so it gets very emotional and very cute and I also love my reels I keep watching them I just roll my reel on Instagram every night so it gets nice because I think normal reel making is easier but in this genre of photography it has to be very heart touching, emotional, personal

 Vineet

and well produced and has to be well produced, it has to look very very professional because most of the insta reels like we don't have a video production business for companies right so we have the reels have to stand out because 90 % of the reels we see are the individuals who are talking to camera.

 Littletoes

Thank you.

 Littletoes

this day.

 Littletoes

Red. Red.

 Vineet

Yeah, so professional work that you're charging for has to look professional, has to look different. So do you have a team separately that does it for you or have you?

 Littletoes

Yeah, so I have a set of videographers. I have one videographer and one editor. That is dedicated to the real section only. Because to click photo and video of the baby, one person cannot do it. Because the baby is one second here and the other second he's there. So we cannot wait for the baby to come again and give the same expressions twice. So that cannot be done. So yeah, I have a separate team of videographers.

 Vineet

Hmm.

 Littletoes

and editors that are specialized only for Instagram Reels nowadays. And then there's another set of editors for photo editing.

 Vineet

And you are essentially, your first sentence in this discussion was that you're a business student, that you've come from a business background. Right? And actually you're running a business. You're not just a creative, you're running a business alongside. So do you feel that you're a business person in a creative field? Do you feel you're a creative person?

 Littletoes

So I am not a no. It gets very complicated these days because I have to fight my creativity versus my business skills every day. Every day I am questioning myself whether I am a artist or a business person. It is getting so competitive these days. It's getting so competitive. I cannot just, you know, do like make this is what I'll do because the client will go to another photographer for that.

 Vineet

Yeah.

 Littletoes

So I have to compete with that and plus I have to get my own original skills in that photo. So it is getting very very tricky these days and I don't think I'm a good business person to be honest. I think I'm a good artist. I can get good pictures but I can not be a good businessman. I have seen people in the same field only. They have grown so much just because they have good business skills.

 Vineet

I think you can cut yourself some slack. I think you're trying to learn and do a lot of stuff at the same time. I think you can cut yourself some slack. You are... Yeah, sorry. Hmm.

 Littletoes

Yes, yeah, that is true. So I did my MBA from Nasimunji, but I don't think it helped at all. I am not able to work.

 Vineet

I don't know what you studied in your MBA but I'm disagreeing right now. I don't think you would have been able to do, run a setup like this. I think your MBA must have helped. I actually, after I did my MBA I said no no it didn't help, it didn't help.

 Littletoes

Yeah, but this. Sorry.

 Littletoes

It's not going to help, it's all theoretical. Nothing practical came out of it. It's very theoretical. Just give exams and pass and you'll do your MBA. But I think it should be more practical. Because I'm facing problems right now which I think I should have studied in my master's programme. Which I didn't. So I think... It's a non -ending fight. Whether I'm an artist, whether I'm a businessman. It's a non -ending fight and I think it's going to be...

 Vineet

I got from the beginning.

 Littletoes

Until I'm in this business.

 Vineet

It will never change.

 Littletoes

I see that. It'll never change. And it's just not me. All the people. Like I have my earthquake. This is and the same thing. Everyone knows that this is what's going on. What are we doing? We're just following the trends, not doing anything unique.

 Vineet

No, but that's something that Instagram is obviously very, very helpful for photographers.

 Vineet

that Instagram is a source of business, is a source of creative inspiration, but for me it's a source of imposter syndrome also that my work, I feel I'm getting better at a particular technical topic like I'm getting into macro photography, pet photography I've been doing for a few years now and suddenly my algo is showing me the best in the world.

 Littletoes

I'm going to go to bed.

 Vineet

And this is where the business thing you mentioned was very interesting because part of our business brain, our MBA brain is also geared into how do you separate yourself from everyone else? Right. And part of me then ends up feeling like these guys were all A, there are so many people offering services at my level of expertise and B, here are these global experts. Right. So how do you, does that ever become a problem in your head or?

 Littletoes

It becomes a problem in my head throughout. Everyday it becomes a problem because my Instagram feed is filled with photographers from all over the world. And be it any part of the world, I still compare myself to those photographers everyday. You know, I still feel, my god, they're doing so much better than me. This lighting is so much better. And a part of me, still, like I know inside that, you know, no lighting, no gear. Nothing can help you to upscale your work as much as you can do it.

 Vineet

Hmm.

 Littletoes

So we can just blame the lighting, that their lighting is better, that is why the quality is better, their camera is better. But inside we all know, it's just us. It's our problem, we can fix it. It's just us, so I think it's a problem. So usually I stop scrolling my Instagram feed. So I still feel it's very beneficial for everyone to do it. Because we are in a competition with ourselves only.

 Vineet

Good day.

 Littletoes

once we open the Instagram field it's very competitive. In my industry only there are a lot of workshops happening. Every day there is a photographer teaching 10 students and all 10 students will open their Instagram account and then post their pictures. So it is very competitive these days. I think the more you scroll the better.

 Vineet

Yeah because that NBA brain was a USB camera. What is my USB?

 Littletoes

Yeah, what is the USP? Everyone is doing the same thing. What are we providing that they are not? And then I stopped and then I start thinking that what can we do to make it better? And then I discuss it with my POs and they are like, you are doing everything, you can't do it. There is nothing in your hands, what else can you do? But you know, our MBA brain never stops.

 Vineet

Exactly, exactly. I think the answer is to stop scrolling. Maybe. Rest of all, who want photographer services, please keep scrolling. But creators themselves, reduce it a little.

 Littletoes

Stop swallowing.

 Littletoes

Yes.

 Yeah, come from the front because I think that is the ultimate goal.

 Vineet

So now, what next? What does growth mean for you? You're obviously, you're doing what you love, you enjoy.

 Right, of course there is some tension, there is some creative tension, there is some fun, but essentially you are doing, you're working in a field that you love and that was born out of love. Right. So what is growth like? What do you want to do next? How do you expand what you're doing or continue?

 Littletoes

Left click.

 Littletoes

I got to expand what I'm doing. I had that in my mind. I want to open my branches, which I did in Chandigarh, like a few months back. It's been a lot of competition because I understand now why do not people open more branches. It's very tough. It's very tough to communicate to Chandigarh every after every two days and you know to keep your if you are hiring people there to keep an eye over them to you know tell them.

 Plus I think market research is very important before opening any branch. So long term goals if you ask me I do want to open up more branches. I have few cities in my mind where this field is not that much open. So I do want to open up more branches within India only.

 Vineet

And do you feel, so of course we've discussed the tension between creative and business, but do you end up specifically feeling that the more you expand, the more you are moving away from the creative part of it, the lesser time you are spending on photography.

 Littletoes

So we have a business meeting every weekend. So whoever is doing my under work, everyone says to me, you should stop shooting now and you should just supervise. You should not shoot. You should supervise. Yes, and then, no, I love that. That's why I opened it. What would be the point of not doing an MBR or a corporate job if I'm just supervising this? No, this cannot happen.

 Vineet

It will get boring. It will get boring.

 Littletoes

So I have to travel to Chandigarh, then I'm not shooting. So it is a very tough battle between right now that is going on. If I open up more branches, obviously I'll be able to shoot less. I'll have to supervise more and I'll have to shoot less. So I'm still figuring it out, what I do want. Like what I want to take it into a business level or just, you know, do it for me, for my love. So.

 Vineet

I think higher supervisors rather than higher photographers.

 Littletoes

Yeah, that would be better. But I have seen that people in this field are not at all because see if you hire a photographer, he'll be with you till 10 to 6 and after 6 he'll do his own work under your name. I have seen that happening in my studio. Yeah, I have seen my salesperson handling two businesses. One is mine and one is from Gujarat. She's also very famous photographer. So I've seen her handling two businesses.

 Vineet

Hmm.

 Vineet

Hmm.

 Littletoes

So coincidentally we met at a meetup and then we discussed and then we came to know, my God, our sales executive is the same person.

 So you know, hiring more people. Yes, and I think it's very tough to supervise these days because I think their loyalty towards their work is decreasing day by day. It's very tough. They all want a side hustle. So they are hustling after our workers under our name only. So that is why I am like that is why I want to supervise more, you know, to keep an eye over them to know like what they're doing, what they're not doing. Right.

 Vineet

Wow, two grand jobs.

 Vineet

Fair enough, fair enough. Yes, that struggle will go on but it's okay, part of life, I guess. And I think this has been a good, quick but very very fruitful discussion but one last question, marketing. How do you do your own marketing?

 Littletoes

Yeah.

 Littletoes

I do my own marketing, I make my own deals. So I think one of my major growth in my work has been my shoot. I recently shot my shoot, done my maternity shoot with Rubina Delik. So I think post that I've seen an increase in my clientele. So for marketing, my number one marketing strategy is to do more and more collabs as possible.

Because these days people are trusting influencers like anything. They are blindly trusting them. Whatever they do, whatever they are doing, they just have to copy their lifestyle. And that is when I feel that, you know, I do like right now also, I make time and I do two to three collabs every week.

 Vineet

So that's an interesting one. That would take a lot of time, but I guess that's worth it getting you.

 Littletoes

Yes, I do take it does take a lot of time, but I think that helps.

 It helps a lot marketing in like obviously there are traditional ways of marketing running Instagram ads or running Google ads and all these things that is going hand by hand but this influencer marketing is my number one these days.

 Vineet

That's an interesting point to end at. Muskaan, thank you so much for joining us. We had a very interesting conversation and a bit of a therapy session for two creators. Two business students turned creators. Yes.

 Littletoes

Thank you so much for having me.

 Littletoes

Hehehehe

 Yes, click wait. Thank you so much. Lovely meeting you. We'll meet in Delhi now. We'll meet physically in Delhi now.

 Vineet

Thanks for joining us, thanks for your time.

 Likewise, likewise. Yeah. Yeah. And thank you everyone. Thanks for tuning in and see you on the next episode of individuals photosynthesis. Bye bye.

 Littletoes

Okay.

 Littletoes

Thank you.

 Littletoes

Bye.

 Vineet

It's a good.